[lug] a bit tired of updates

Pedersen, Michael J PederMJ at LOUISVILLE.STORTEK.COM
Wed Oct 27 08:58:14 MDT 1999


Well, there is another option, but it's not a popular one: Debian. Here's
what happens, and why Debian's package management is better.

RedHat uses the .rpm files.  Debian uses .deb files. Differences:

RPM files are a totally new format (which is why other distributions use a
program named "alien" to read them).
RPM files either don't have post-install scripts, or don't do much with
them.  Post-install scripts allow a program to properly configure itself,
which can be a very good thing.

DEB files are, as best I can recall, actually .tar.gz files with a different
ending (internal format, thought, is .tar.gz).
DEB files simply include some extra files to allow Debian's package manager
to figure out how to install a program.
DEB files have much used post-install scripts, sometimes even overused
(explained in a minute).

Redhat's strengths lie in the fact that it's installer is very easy (still
not as easy as Caldera's, or the new Corel which isn't released yet, but
very easy overall).  It's RPMs are difficult to use, as you've noticed.
System management under RedHat is another one of it's weaknesses (having
worked with RedHat for a few years, I can say this.  And no, the
control-panel is NOT as easy as some of the Debian configurations).

Debian's strengths lie in the fact that it is overwhelmingly easy to
configure and use, AFTER it's set up.  I can do one command (apt-get
dist-upgrade), and assuming that I have my configuration information done
correctly (which involves typing in a URL into a text file), I will upgrade
my entire machine, all in one step.  Furthermore, if I need to install a
brand new package, I simply type in "apt-get install package" (same
configuration restrictions above), and not only will the new package be
downloaded and installed, but also it will download and install all
dependencies on that package (ie: a gnome upgrade requires an updated
library, which would break another package. The other package, the new
library, and the new package will all be downloaded and installed in the
order it takes to avoid breaking anything).  VERY nice command to have.
Debian's weaknesses lie in it's installer.  While options are being worked
on to make the whole install process more painless, it's still very
difficult to work out properly.  If you are actually picky about what goes
on your system, you can spend two hours (or more) picking out which packages
to install (last count was over 4000 on 2 CDs), and then the post-install
scripts will take 4 or more hours to complete, due to all the questions).
And that was what I meant by the post-install scripts sometimes being
overused.

As a result, my personal preference is Debian.  While it took me several
days to download all the new packages (over a modem), I was able to do so,
and complete an entire system upgrade, without a new CD, without
reformatting (something I did EVERY time I upgraded RedHat), without
breaking anything.

My suggestion? Take a look at other tools which are out there. I believe
there are tools available for RedHat which function similarly to apt-get for
Debian, but don't know what they are (or where, or how to get them, or ...).

Good luck, and feel free to ask questions on the whole process directly to
me, if you wish.

Michael Pedersen

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kirk Rafferty [mailto:kirk at fpcc.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 1999 8:18 AM
> To: lug at lug.boulder.co.us
> Subject: Re: [lug] a bit tired of updates
> 
> 
> 
> Oops, meant to say "--nodeps" instead of "--force" option to rpm.
> 
> -k
> 
> On Wed, 27 Oct 1999, Kirk Rafferty wrote:
> 
> > 
> > I don't really think there's a way around what you're 
> describing.  Some
> > of the better sites point out dependencies and where you 
> can get them,
> > and that's always nice.  Also, if you're sure you have a dependency
> > installed (maybe you cicumvented rpm) and the package 
> complains it needs
> > it, there's always the "--force" option (my favorite 
> "power" command :).
> > 
> > RPM at least makes it easy to know what you need.  Ever try 
> to install
> > a .tar.gz package and get a bizarre message that it can't 
> find libfoo.so
> > or something?  Cripes, then you have to actually go back 
> and read the
> > README.first file! :-)
> > 
> > --
> > _/ Kirk Rafferty - Fairplay Communications - Kirk at fpcc.net 
> - 303.363.8810  _/
> > _/     Fast Internet access for $14.95/month -- 
> http://www.fpcc.net        _/
> > _/   10Mb Web Space, 2 Email addresses, your own hostname, 
> Linux shell     _/
> > _/ Fairplay Communications uses Open Source Operating 
> Systems exclusively  _/
> > 
> > On Wed, 27 Oct 1999, Chan Kar Heng wrote:
> > 
> > > greetings.
> > > 
> > > just to voice an irritating feeling which i feel most linux
> > > users share...
> > > 
> > > i'm quite sure we all know sometimes why we're get .rpm
> > > files and not .tar.gz or .tgz files... coz .rpm provides
> > > dependency checks for one.
> > > 
> > > so .rpm it is. but do you often find out about a new app
> > > or a new version of a favourite app and proceed to download
> > > the rpm, only to find that you need an rpm of a (set) of
> > > libraries which need to be upgraded as well.
> > > 
> > > so you proceed to search and download those rpms required
> > > for your new app and install em.. only to find that some
> > > other apps are dependent on your old libraries which you
> > > are about to replace. and so you proceed to search and download
> > > a newer version of that app as well. (unless you choose
> > > to break the dependency by forcing the install, and getting
> > > your app semi-broken)
> > > 
> > > imho, this is all rather frustrating, esp while following
> > > thru many versions of linux distribution (i can't claim
> > > i did so far, and i'm not a heavy user too, tell by the mail
> > > headers.. heh!).
> > > 
> > > so does anyone have a certain recipe for overcoming this
> > > rather irritating thing? (though it only happens once in
> > > a month or few)
> > > 
> > > regards,
> > > khchan
> > > 
> > > ps: linux is still cool!
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --------------------------------------------
> > > i don't suffer from stress... i'm a carrier.
> > > http://home.backroom.net/~bozo
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Web Page:  http://lug.boulder.co.us
> > > Mailing List: http://lists.lug.boulder.co.us/mailman/listinfo/lug
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Web Page:  http://lug.boulder.co.us
> > Mailing List: http://lists.lug.boulder.co.us/mailman/listinfo/lug
> > 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> 




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