[lug] One laptop per child

[Michael J. Hammel]

Well, this is getting deep, aint it.

On Fri, 2006-12-01 at 23:42 -0700, dio2002 at indra.com wrote:
> Seriously.  If i knew the water coming out of my tap was tainted and I had
> a choice of clean water or a free laptop, i know which one i'd choose and
> it ain't the laptop.

And where did you get the knowledge of what tainted water was and how to
identify it?  Where do they get that knowledge?  

You also assume that the places that were getting these laptops didn't
have basic needs.  Thailand was getting tons of these things until the
coup.  They weren't going to the starving, dehydrated rural masses
either.  Now, due to politics, they aren't getting them at all.  That
does have something to do with basic liberties.  But the OLPC guys don't
have an army and little influence without one against a military coup.

So, assuming you're right and the resources should go to peace instead
of laptops, just how would you propose they handle this situation?  If
you're going to complain, offer a solution.  Otherwise it's just
whining.

> Knowledge IS power.  But it assumes you are alive, safe and allowed (the
> right) to use it.

Baloney.  Knowledge is knowing right from wrong, and even exposing the
wrongs in the face of dire consequences such as the N. Korean who has
been smuggling out videos of some of the goings on in his country.  He's
alive, but far from safe and definitely not allowed.  Does he lack
knowledge?  Does he lack power?  Why would someone with this kind of
knowledge be in danger from a despot?  Because despot's fear someone
with knowledge, not someone with water.  Knowledge is power.  It has
nothing to do with being safe or whether or not you're allowed to use
it.

> Also, laptops don't necessarily equate to or guarantee knowledge.  

And the lack of them doesn't guarantee peace or basic services like
water or sewage. Which is why I disagree with your premise that the
efforts for OLPC should be directed elsewhere.  I used to volunteer for
a local animal shelter.  There were lots of volunteers there.  They
aren't contributing to world peace.  Should they stop what they're
doing?

> There
> are plenty of wise people that have never touched a laptop in their life. 

None of those people are on this list.  :-)

> And i know plenty of people that use laptops that aren't necessarily any
> wiser for the experience.  They shop more and faster.  Or they download
> some cool mp3's, watch a video on youtube or upload another photo gallery.

The foolishness of American youth (and those that never grow up) is not
directly related to any other people's use of such a tool. 

> But... do they "really" know any more about the world they live in?

Not at all.  It's why America is in deep trouble.  They squander the
resources they have.  But again, this has nothing to do with what other
countries might do.  Believe me, not *all* countries want to be like us.

> The point wasn't about one precluding the other, it was about which is
> more important to your fundamental existence.  If you were living in burma
> and you had no human rights making your existence deplorable and the govt
> tommorow changes its tune and says you have a choice between full human
> rights or a laptop, which one would you choose?  ain't gonna be a laptop. 
> it's a no brainer.

Sure, I'll agree with that.  But it's not an argument for why the OLPC
project should stop, or even why it's a waste of time.  It's not.  It's
people making the best use of their talents to tackle a different
problem than politics.  I keep getting the sense that you're argument is
that if I'm not doing something to solve world peace, I should do
nothing at all.  

> And to some degree, one probably does preclude the other. We live in a
> fairly free world so it's hard to relate.  But do you think the burmese
> govt would allow a free laptop program in their country?  

No.  So I don't think OLPC should waste it's time there (I have no idea
if they are or aren't).  Like Sean said, you pick your battles.  I'm not
out to fight a war.  I just want to solve a problem. One small piece at
a time.  I'm not out to solve world peace.  It's not what I do.  But I
can do something to help people with technology.  It's what I
understand.  Maybe it won't help.  But it's better than doing nothing.  

> I don't presume anything.  I said if you had a choice which would you
> take? peace or a laptop?  

If I had a choice would I pick a house or a job?  Why are these mutually
exclusive?  Why *must* they be mutually exclusive?  If peace is not
available but the laptop and education is, would they choose the laptop?
You're premise is that both *ARE* available and that there can be only
one choice.  OLPC can't provide peace.  They can only provide
educational opportunities.  Given they can't provide peace, should they
not provide the latter?

> I also said "if it (meaing that laptops) can
> help in any way than i'm for it"... so i'm not against the idea at all.

That's good.

> My point is really just how skewed things are.  That you even have to make
> these choices really..  You should have clean water and rights and safety.

Absoluletely.  It's annoying as hell that these kinds of dilemmas even
arise.  Everyone should have clean water and rights and safety.  But
even in the US not everyone has all these things.  The politics of
people is hard to resolve.  Technology is only one tool but it's one
that has had an artificial barrier to access.  OLPC is trying to change
that.  If you solve all the political problems of the world - ie we get
world peace - you still need to educate people on how to provide for
themselves.  Solving one doesn't solve the other.  Pick your battles.

> No it's not a bad idea.  Again i didn't say it was.  It might just be the
> answer or it might be one piece to an incredibly crazy puzzle or it might
> be utterly meaningless.

The only thing that is meaningless is to do nothing at all.  Even doing
something wrong teaches you something, and therefore has meaning.  It is
part of a cray puzzle.  But it's a part that fits well in the whole
picture.

> You assume that there is a lack of knowledge already there.  Which assumes
> that everyone else knows something they don't.  Knowledge may have nothing
> to do with it.  These people may have all the knowledge they need to live
> their way of life (subsistence).  They don't want a car or a laptop or
> know how to surf the web and watch youtube.  What's wrong with that?

Nothing if that's what they want.  How do you know that's what they
want?  Should they not be given the choice?

> Maybe they just don't have clean water.  Maybe there govt is just corrupt.
>  Maybe they live under military rule.  Maybe they don't have access to
> land.  It isn't a question of knowledge per se.  It's simply a question of
> govt and rule and corporations.  Maybe a first world country is keeping
> that country down.

All absolutely true and all of which have nothing to do with what they
people are doing with OLPC.

> You also assume that access to laptops equates to knowledge and that
> having one guarantees the other.  

No, it doesn't guarantee it.  But it *can* help.  If you don't provide
the technology, they can still learn all they need to.  It'll take a few
years longer and probably be a lot more difficult, but it can be done.
I don't see that as a good reason to not *try* and bring knowledge to
those places that would like to have it.

> "Knowledge" means different things to
> different people.  As i stated earlier, i'm not sure the knowledge of the
> average american or any other internet user is any greater because of it. 
> You personally may use it for knowledge, but lots of people use it purely
> for entertainment and shopping and email.

So because only one person uses it for good, we should never make it
available to others?  All your arguments are about the basic rights of
life.  Isn't choice for a better life one of those?  Even if only one
other person chooses it?

> And in the places that may need "knowledge" the most, especially in the
> third world, do you think a despot is going to let free laptops in or
> freedom of information flow?

No.  But I don't see that despot stopping it completely either.  If you
don't believe that, ask that N. Korean with the video camera.

-- 
Michael J. Hammel           |
mjhammel at graphics-muse.org  |  Books we'll never see:
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