[lug] Anyone else hate to get rid of old equipment?

[Nate Duehr]

On 5/25/2010 3:56 PM, Davide Del Vento wrote:
>> can't understand how anyone in Boulder, with all of the research labs, could
>> have any doubt about the reality of global climate change.  Maybe the cause
>> is still open for debate, but not the existence of sustained and measurable
>> change
>>      
> I am a physicist and I work at NCAR so I must answer. The reality of
> global warming and its cause is indeed certain. Pumping into the
> atmosphere stuff that was in the ground increases the greenhouse
> effect and thus Earth *average* temperature, period.
>    

Okay, let's say I agree on that point... which might or might not change 
my personal behavior... we've already pointed out that human behavior is 
badly understood... right?

(By the way, an awful lot of the data points used to "prove" warming 
have serious questions about how they were gathered.  Can't find the 
link right now, but are you familiar with the Hawaiian data that was 
taken at the AIRPORT, next to hot runways, vs. just as credible data a 
few miles away in pristine land that showed opposite effects over 50+ 
years?  Okay... that said...)

There's a lot of evidence that the planet, being a closed system other 
than the effects of more or less energy output from the Sun (cool data 
on that too, lately... now that we're able to measure that!), will simply:

- Melt more of the icecaps, resulting in more water in the oceans.
- Which results in more surface area of water worldwide.
+ higher temperatures, means more evaporation.
- Meaning more clouds, and more rainfall where it never fell before.
- Meaning more plants, which need CO to survive.
- Meaning more CO scrubbed from the air, and put into the ground in 
those areas covered in plant life.

* Is the melting of the icecaps a "disaster"? (Emotional answer, not a 
scientific one from most folks... "Oh no, the polar bears may go extinct!")
* Will higher water levels make some beachfront property uninhabitable?  
(Again, emotional response... "Oh no, my house fell into the ocean!")
* Will higher temperatures mean people migrate further north on our 
continent, and Australia becomes a very uncomfortable place to live in 
the South?
* Will more clouds and more weather activity mean wilder severe weather 
in some areas?
* Will more CO for plants mean more infiltrations of "weeds"/"noxious" 
plants like Kudzu in the South, introduced by accident by humans, but 
probably enjoying its new climate and chomping away on CO in the process?

Is it a circle?

If we say there's no doubt at all about Global Warming, and I think 
there still is for some people... y'all have a marketing/sales problem 
there I'm not going to attempt to fix... that's fine... but the answers 
to "How does this affect me?" and "How does this affect my 
children/grandchildren?" are tantamount in getting people to change any 
behavior causing any of it.

I'll respect your statement as someone who spends more time studying the 
topic than I do -- and even maybe even believe it -- but it doesn't get 
to the heart of people until someone can scientifically state "this is 
what will happen".  Since we can't even predict the weather with any 
great accuracy beyond 3 days (we get close, but try flying a light 
aircraft off of a 5 day old weather forecast, and see how long you 
survive!)... there's still an awful lot of work in the scientific 
community to be done to answer those questions.

Going back to the original topic: If I throw my Sun Ultra 2 in the dump, 
what happens?  THAT can probably be scientifically measured.

- How many Ultra 2's made worldwide?
- How many in Denver/Boulder Metro?
- How many landfills and will they be spread between them relatively 
equally?
- What's in the Ultra 2's that's toxic to things we all care about?
- How much of it will leech out and go somewhere we don't want it to, 
what's the expected kill rate for the things we care about?

THOSE are the questions in the back of EVERYONE's minds when we throw 
out computer/electronic gear we're no longer happy with and don't repair 
it.  (By the way, forced recycling at a high enough price-point would 
probably bring back businesses that repair computers in droves, and 
maybe even stifle CPU speed increases, as people might demand coders pay 
attention to efficiency again someday in their code, so it will run on 
their old slow computers!  Economics all interrelates.)

I'm "totally cool" with saying that Global Warming exists, if someone 
wants me to.  I just think it still doesn't answer the question: "Why do 
I care?"

I think a lot of people are in that boat... if their kids aren't 
browbeating them with stories from the Priests placed in their school 
textbooks, that is.  Indoctrination is powerful stuff! It's often easier 
to change societal behavior by indoctrinating the kids, than to convince 
the much more level-headed parents. ;-)

Nate